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TOPIC: Too much protein for Keto?

 
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September 5, 2012 5:22 AM
Hey.

I started the Keto plan yesterday and was told to keep fats high but I think I'm going over on the protein. I want to hit ketosis will this hinder my efforts? I have pcos so is a struggle as is.

My diary is open, meals are a little mis matched as I'm just throwing things together to try and reach the numbers.
Macros are 5% carbs, 60% fat and 35% protein.

Advice on getting fat and calories up appreciated and I exercise 5 days a week and not sure if I should eat back cals burned.

Thanks
  8187300
September 5, 2012 5:52 AM
I think the main thing is keeping your carbs ultra low. I dont think the others matter a whole lot as far as getting into ketosis.
  11058666
September 5, 2012 6:53 AM
Thank you. Can't wait until the sticks arrive so I can test it at the end of the week.
  8187300
September 5, 2012 7:19 AM
too much protein will indeed hinder ketosis, about half of the protein goes that way.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/ketosis-and-the-ketogenic-ratio-qa.html
  18022302
September 5, 2012 7:38 AM
QUOTE:

too much protein will indeed hinder ketosis, about half of the protein goes that way.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/ketosis-and-the-ketogenic-ratio-qa.html


Did you even read that article? First off, a quote from the article you referenced:
QUOTE:

So basically I threw out the ketogenic ratio. As noted above, it’s crucial for the development of epilepsy treatment diets (anyone wanting more information on this topic should purchase the excellent The Ketogenic Diet: A Treatment for Epilepsy by Freeman, Freeman and Kelly.
But for dieters and folks seeking body recomposition, it made setting up appropriate diets impossible.
Additionally, there isn’t convincing evidence in my opinion that ketosis is crucial for the benefits of the diet. Yes, ketones are protein sparing but only when dietary protein intake is inadequate in the first place. When protein is set appropriately (e.g. 1-1.5 g/lb lean body mass as discussed in The Protein Book), the development of ketosis isn’t that critical to spare protein. Simply, protein is the most protein sparing nutrient and other things (e.g. ketones vs. carbohydrates) only matter if protein is inadequate in the first place.


Secondly, if you look at the eqn, 0.46*protein/0.58*protein means protein is basically a wash regarding getting into ketosis. Carbs and Fat are the biggest factors.
  11058666
September 5, 2012 7:39 AM
btw, I know very little about ketosis diets, so you may still be right, but the link is horrible info to support yourself with!
  11058666
September 5, 2012 7:47 AM
QUOTE:

QUOTE:

too much protein will indeed hinder ketosis, about half of the protein goes that way.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/ketosis-and-the-ketogenic-ratio-qa.html


Did you even read that article? First off, a quote from the article you referenced:
QUOTE:

So basically I threw out the ketogenic ratio. As noted above, it’s crucial for the development of epilepsy treatment diets (anyone wanting more information on this topic should purchase the excellent The Ketogenic Diet: A Treatment for Epilepsy by Freeman, Freeman and Kelly.
But for dieters and folks seeking body recomposition, it made setting up appropriate diets impossible.
Additionally, there isn’t convincing evidence in my opinion that ketosis is crucial for the benefits of the diet. Yes, ketones are protein sparing but only when dietary protein intake is inadequate in the first place. When protein is set appropriately (e.g. 1-1.5 g/lb lean body mass as discussed in The Protein Book), the development of ketosis isn’t that critical to spare protein. Simply, protein is the most protein sparing nutrient and other things (e.g. ketones vs. carbohydrates) only matter if protein is inadequate in the first place.


Secondly, if you look at the eqn, 0.46*protein/0.58*protein means protein is basically a wash regarding getting into ketosis. Carbs and Fat are the biggest factors.


Ketosis is classified when the brain uses ketones. When there is insufficient amounts of glucose. This is under 100g of carbs a day. Excessive amounts of ketones are excreted through the urine.IF your body is using the ketones then you won't test positive for ketosis in a urine test, but you'd still be in ketosis.

The ratio as i know it is 48/100. This means for every gram of protein you eat 48% of it gets converted to glucose. Or .48g per every gram of protein. So it's almost 50%.
  11390926
September 5, 2012 8:00 AM
The problem with Keto diets is maintenance. You will find fast weight loss initially, as the body will use fat for energy, but as the level of carbs remains super low, the rate of fat burn will slow down. By having one day a week of high carbs, the rate of fat burn will stay at a high level. This allows you to have that one day a week when you can eat a normal diet.

carbbackloading.com
carbnite.com
September 5, 2012 8:03 AM
QUOTE:

Secondly, if you look at the eqn, 0.46*protein/0.58*protein means protein is basically a wash regarding getting into ketosis. Carbs and Fat are the biggest factors.


Your maths needs work. Compare about 1200 calories with one case 50g protein and the other 100g protein, the Ketogenic ratio goes from 1.92 to 1.35 - not exactly "basically a wash" is it ??

The body can only use a certain amount of protein, after that it gets busted up and some of it ends up as glucose, a famous anti-ketogenic compound.
  18022302
September 5, 2012 12:57 PM
QUOTE:

QUOTE:

Secondly, if you look at the eqn, 0.46*protein/0.58*protein means protein is basically a wash regarding getting into ketosis. Carbs and Fat are the biggest factors.


Your maths needs work. Compare about 1200 calories with one case 50g protein and the other 100g protein, the Ketogenic ratio goes from 1.92 to 1.35 - not exactly "basically a wash" is it ??

The body can only use a certain amount of protein, after that it gets busted up and some of it ends up as glucose, a famous anti-ketogenic compound.


No, I believe my math, and statement, are still correct.

What numbers are you using for your 1200 calorie scenario? The model's response will change depending on where you are on the curve.

The original equation, by inspection, is pretty apparent which variables have the largest response, but to clarify:

Since the OP is using a 5%/60%/35% diet, I ran a sensitivity analysis using 100g fat, 132g protein, and 18g carbs totaling 1500 calories. This gives a KR of 1.44. Increasing each of the macros by 1g and keeping the others constant shows that for every percent change in carbs, the KR changes -0.95%. Fat changes the KR by +0.50% per %fat change. Finally, protein has a -0.25% effect on KR per percent change in protein.

In other words, for a percent change in each macro, protein has the smallest effect, fat has about twice as much influence, and carbs have roughly 4x the effect of protein. Protein and carbs can lower the KR, and fat can increase it, but like I said earlier, "Carbs and Fat are the biggest factors"

Can you get off your goal ratio with protein? Of course. Can you change your ratio with fat and carbs much easier? Of course.
  11058666
September 5, 2012 2:09 PM
I used 1180 calories 20g carbs both cases, take protein from 50 to 100g and fat the opposite way from 100 to 77.8 the KR goes from 1.92 to 1.35 - so yes too much protein affects ketosis mathematically. I also know it does in the real world as I have a ketone analyser.

If eating more protein produces more glucose, a credible pathway, then it is inevitable.

Taking your 1500 case and dropping the protein from 132g (a high level of protein) to 75g I can boost the ketogenic ratio from 1.44 to 1.99 ( +38% ) - so again a large impact from reducing protein, from which the answer to the OP's question is surely "yes".

If you maintain the 1500 calories dropping the protein to 75g gives a higher KR than keeping the protein the same and eliminating the carbs completely.
  18022302
September 6, 2012 2:54 PM
QUOTE:

I used 1180 calories 20g carbs both cases, take protein from 50 to 100g and fat the opposite way from 100 to 77.8 the KR goes from 1.92 to 1.35 - so yes too much protein affects ketosis mathematically. I also know it does in the real world as I have a ketone analyser.

If eating more protein produces more glucose, a credible pathway, then it is inevitable.

Taking your 1500 case and dropping the protein from 132g (a high level of protein) to 75g I can boost the ketogenic ratio from 1.44 to 1.99 ( +38% ) - so again a large impact from reducing protein, from which the answer to the OP's question is surely "yes".

If you maintain the 1500 calories dropping the protein to 75g gives a higher KR than keeping the protein the same and eliminating the carbs completely.


Just thought i'd throw this in here. Protein intake shouldn't drop below 150g during low carb diets. Doesn't matter the weight of the person or LBM. 150g is the minimum amount. Research has found that any lower you will lose nitrogen regardless of LBM or weight.
  11390926

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