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TOPIC: Post workout: protien or recovery drink?

 
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December 5, 2011 7:41 AM
I know they are different. From my light research, I have found that protien drinks are... mostly protien (whoah!!) and recovery drinks have a radio of 4:1 carbs to protien (I would probably be using chocolate milk) to help "heal" muscles faster.

Which do I want to take post workout? And why? I lift 2-3 days per week & at least an hour of cardio 5-6 days per week. I'm just not sure what would be best. On another side note, if you think I SHOULD take the recovery drink right after workouts, when should I drink my protien? It REALLY helps me meet my protien quota for the day.

Thank you!!
December 5, 2011 7:47 AM
To my understanding:

Typically, post workout carbohydrates (and recovery drinks) are taken to replenish muscle glycogen. It used to be believed that we needed to do this immediately, but that it's only necessary if you need rapid replenishment of muscle glycogen. For example: Suppose you do a very long workout and 3 hours later you plan on running a long distance run. You should probably ingenst some carbs shortly after your first workout to help replenish muscle glycogen for your run.

However, you don't have some magical time limit to replenish glycogen if you aren't engaging in multiple glycogen depleting events in a short period of time. If you lift and do cardio in the gym, it's not likely that you'll fully deplete glycogen so provided you aren't planning another workout later that day, your next meal should do an adequate job replenishing glycogen for you.
Edited by Sidesteal On December 5, 2011 7:55 AM
December 5, 2011 7:52 AM
I take aftermax after my workouts which is a recovery drink. From everything I have learned it is best to take within an hour after your workout. Recovery drinks have more in them then just carbs.
December 5, 2011 7:54 AM
QUOTE:

I know they are different. From my light research, I have found that protien drinks are... mostly protien (whoah!!) and recovery drinks have a radio of 4:1 carbs to protien (I would probably be using chocolate milk) to help "heal" muscles faster.

Which do I want to take post workout? And why? I lift 2-3 days per week & at least an hour of cardio 5-6 days per week. I'm just not sure what would be best. On another side note, if you think I SHOULD take the recovery drink right after workouts, when should I drink my protien? It REALLY helps me meet my protien quota for the day.

Thank you!!


hitting your macros for the day is much more important then meal timing.
December 5, 2011 7:56 AM
QUOTE:

To my understanding:

Typically, post workout carbohydrates (and recovery drinks) are taken to replenish muscle glycogen. It used to be believed that we needed to do this immediately, but that it's only necessary if you need rapid replenishment of muscle glycogen. For example: Suppose you do a very long workout and 3 hours later you plan on running a long distance run. You should probably ingenst some carbs shortly after your first workout to help replenish muscle glycogen for your run.

However, you don't have some magical time limit to replenish glycogen if you aren't engaging in multiple glycogen depleting events in a short period of time. If you lift and do cardio in the gym, it's not likely that you'll fully deplete glycogen so provided you aren't planning another workout later that day, your next meal should do an adequate job replenishing glycogen for you.


^^This is the truth^^


QUOTE:
From everything I have learned it is best to take within an hour after your workout


^^This is a myth^^
December 5, 2011 8:59 AM
Doesn't matter
December 5, 2011 9:01 AM
I personally take gold standard 100% whey protein in chocolate. Its yummy. I knotice a big difference in "soreness" if I don't drink it right after my workout but I guess that's just me...
  8027116
December 5, 2011 9:27 AM
QUOTE:


QUOTE:
From everything I have learned it is best to take within an hour after your workout


^^This is a myth^^

It's not a myth. There is research to support taking in 3:1 or 4:1 carb to protein ratio food including specific amino acids after a workout within 30 to 60 minutes. It's not just one study either but several.

I use Fluid Recovery Drink myself and I notice the difference if I am lazy about getting it in vs. when I am very religious about doing it.
  159717
December 5, 2011 9:33 AM
QUOTE:

QUOTE:


QUOTE:
From everything I have learned it is best to take within an hour after your workout


^^This is a myth^^

It's not a myth. There is research to support taking in 3:1 or 4:1 carb to protein ratio food including specific amino acids after a workout within 30 to 60 minutes. It's not just one study either but several.

I use Fluid Recovery Drink myself and I notice the difference if I am lazy about getting it in vs. when I am very religious about doing it.


Do you have any of these studies and do you have any that are not quotes from the supplement companies that want you to believe this information because it benefits them?
December 5, 2011 9:39 AM
QUOTE:

QUOTE:


QUOTE:
From everything I have learned it is best to take within an hour after your workout


^^This is a myth^^

It's not a myth. There is research to support taking in 3:1 or 4:1 carb to protein ratio food including specific amino acids after a workout within 30 to 60 minutes. It's not just one study either but several.

I use Fluid Recovery Drink myself and I notice the difference if I am lazy about getting it in vs. when I am very religious about doing it.


you mean like this one, oops that doesn't support your statement and it was done on fasted subjects

Tipton et al. Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise. AJP - Endo August 2001 vol. 281 no. 2 E197-E206

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/2/E197.long

"This study was designed to determine whether the response of muscle protein metabolism to an EAC solution was different if consumed immediately before resistance exercise rather than immediately after resistance exercise. Ingestion of EAC changed net muscle protein balance from negative values, i.e., net release, to positive net uptake, in both trials. However, the total response to the consumption of EAC immediately before exercise was greater than the response when EAC was consumed immediately after exercise. Furthermore, it appears that the change from a catabolic state in the muscle to an anabolic state was primarily due to an increase in muscle protein synthesis.

In the present study, the effectiveness of the drink appeared to be greater when it was consumed immediately before exercise (PRE) compared with immediately after exercise (POST). Approximately 209 ± 42 mg of phenylalanine were taken up across the leg in the PRE trial, whereas only 81 ± 19 mg of phenylalanine were taken up during POST. Whereas the response of muscle protein metabolism increased dramatically and then declined within 1 h to basal levels after EAC consumption in the POST trial, the response was sustained in the PRE trial. Net balance increased during exercise, declined slightly, and then increased a second time after exercise when the drink was consumed before exercise. The length of the effect, plus higher blood flow during exercise in the PRE trial, resulted in significantly greater total uptake over the entire study period. "

"The ingestion of a relatively small amount of essential amino acids, combined with carbohydrates, is an effective stimulator of net muscle protein synthesis. The stimulation of net muscle protein synthesis when EAC is consumed before exercise is superior to that when EAC is consumed after exercise. The combination of increased amino acid levels at a time when blood flow is increased appears to offer the maximum stimulation of muscle protein synthesis by increasing amino acid delivery to the muscle and thus amino acid availability. "
December 6, 2011 11:54 AM
I would want to see how the study was set up, what the exercise was, for how long, etc. As I think I said (might have been on another thread though), it does depend on what kind of workouts you are doing. Going for a 30 min walk doesn't need recovery nutrition! I am an endurance athlete and I do hard workouts often longer than 2 hours and those do need recovery nutrition. For one thing, you can't eat as many calories as you consume during these sorts of workouts so you end the session pretty depleted.

I will try to find some links to the studies I have read. They were setup so the subjected did things like bike to exhaustion for 2 hours. Then they had subjects consume recovery nutrition vs a control group that did not. One study has 3 groups -- recovery nutrition, no nutrition and carb-only nutrition. And no, they weren't done by supplement companies. The companies I am familiar with created products in response to these studies, not the other way around.

Here is an article by Nancy Clark. Clark is a well-regarded sports nutritionist and in her book she cites the studies behind her recommendations. They aren't in this article, but I thought it was an interesting read and addresses some of the questions of the OP.

http://www.active.com/nutrition/Articles/Recovery_nutrition_guidelines_after_hard_exercise.htm

This article cites the research behind it's recommendations:
http://www.coreperformance.com/knowledge/nutrition/recovery-nutrition.html

This article from the Australian Institute of Sport says:

http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factsheets/competition_and_training2/recovery_nutrition

Prolonged and high-intensity exercise causes a substantial breakdown of muscle protein. During the recovery phase there is a reduction in catabolic (breakdown) processes and a gradual increase in anabolic (building) processes, which continues for at least 24 hours after exercise. Recent research has shown that early intake after exercise (within the first hour) of essential amino acids from good quality protein foods helps to promote the increase in protein rebuilding. Consuming food sources of protein in meals and snacks after this “window of opportunity” will further promote protein synthesis, though rate at which it occurs is less.

Though research is continuing into the optimal type (e.g. casein Vs whey), timing and amount of protein needed to maximise the desired adaptation from the training stimulus, most agree that both resistance and endurance athletes will benefit from consuming 15-25g of high quality protein in the first hour after exercise. Adding a source of carbohydrate to this post exercise snack will further enhance the training adaptation by reducing the degree of muscle protein breakdown. Table 2 provides a list of carbohydrate rich snacks that also provide at least 10g of protein, while Table 3 lists a number of everyday foods that provide ~10g of protein.
  159717
December 6, 2011 12:05 PM
QUOTE:

I would want to see how the study was set up, what the exercise was, for how long, etc. As I think I said (might have been on another thread though), it does depend on what kind of workouts you are doing. Going for a 30 min walk doesn't need recovery nutrition! I am an endurance athlete and I do hard workouts often longer than 2 hours and those do need recovery nutrition. For one thing, you can't eat as many calories as you consume during these sorts of workouts so you end the session pretty depleted.

I will try to find some links to the studies I have read. They were setup so the subjected did things like bike to exhaustion for 2 hours. Then they had subjects consume recovery nutrition vs a control group that did not. One study has 3 groups -- recovery nutrition, no nutrition and carb-only nutrition. And no, they weren't done by supplement companies. The companies I am familiar with created products in response to these studies, not the other way around.

Here is an article by Nancy Clark. Clark is a well-regarded sports nutritionist and in her book she cites the studies behind her recommendations. They aren't in this article, but I thought it was an interesting read and addresses some of the questions of the OP.

http://www.active.com/nutrition/Articles/Recovery_nutrition_guidelines_after_hard_exercise.htm

This article cites the research behind it's recommendations:
http://www.coreperformance.com/knowledge/nutrition/recovery-nutrition.html

This article from the Australian Institute of Sport says:

http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factsheets/competition_and_training2/recovery_nutrition

Prolonged and high-intensity exercise causes a substantial breakdown of muscle protein. During the recovery phase there is a reduction in catabolic (breakdown) processes and a gradual increase in anabolic (building) processes, which continues for at least 24 hours after exercise. Recent research has shown that early intake after exercise (within the first hour) of essential amino acids from good quality protein foods helps to promote the increase in protein rebuilding. Consuming food sources of protein in meals and snacks after this “window of opportunity” will further promote protein synthesis, though rate at which it occurs is less.

Though research is continuing into the optimal type (e.g. casein Vs whey), timing and amount of protein needed to maximise the desired adaptation from the training stimulus, most agree that both resistance and endurance athletes will benefit from consuming 15-25g of high quality protein in the first hour after exercise. Adding a source of carbohydrate to this post exercise snack will further enhance the training adaptation by reducing the degree of muscle protein breakdown. Table 2 provides a list of carbohydrate rich snacks that also provide at least 10g of protein, while Table 3 lists a number of everyday foods that provide ~10g of protein.


"They were setup so the subjected did things like bike to exhaustion for 2 hours. Then they had subjects consume recovery nutrition vs a control group that did not. One study has 3 groups -- recovery nutrition, no nutrition and carb-only nutrition"

i've read these as well, i also beleive the subjects were fasted as well. But how many people are doing workouts under such conditions that would warrant a fast acting carb + protein?


Burd et al. Enhanced amino acid sensitivity of myofibrillar protein synthesis persists for up to 24 h after resistance exercise in young men. J Nutr. 2011 Apr 1;141(4):568-73. Epub 2011 Feb 2.

"We aimed to determine whether an exercise-mediated enhancement of muscle protein synthesis to feeding persisted 24 h after resistance exercise. We also determined the impact of different exercise intensities (90% or 30% maximal strength) or contraction volume (work-matched or to failure) on the response at 24 h of recovery. Fifteen men (21 ± 1 y, BMI = 24.1 ± 0.8 kg · m(-2)) received a primed, constant infusion of l-[ring-(13)C(6)]phenylalanine to measure muscle protein synthesis after protein feeding at rest (FED; 15 g whey protein) and 24 h after resistance exercise (EX-FED). Participants performed unilateral leg exercises: 1) 4 sets at 90% of maximal strength to failure (90FAIL); 2) 30% work-matched to 90FAIL (30WM); or 3) 30% to failure (30FAIL). Regardless of condition, rates of mixed muscle protein and sarcoplasmic protein synthesis were similarly stimulated at FED and EX-FED. In contrast, protein ingestion stimulated rates of myofibrillar protein synthesis above fasting rates by 0.016 ± 0.002%/h and the response was enhanced 24 h after resistance exercise, but only in the 90FAIL and 30FAIL conditions, by 0.038 ± 0.012 and 0.041 ± 0.010, respectively. Phosphorylation of protein kinase B on Ser473 was greater than FED at EX-FED only in 90FAIL, whereas phosphorylation of mammalian target of rapamycin on Ser2448 was significantly increased at EX-FED above FED only in the 30FAIL condition. Our results suggest that resistance exercise performed until failure confers a sensitizing effect on human skeletal muscle for at least 24 h that is specific to the myofibrillar protein fraction."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204



Alan Aragon:

QUOTE:

The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204

Here's what you're not seeming to grasp: the "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everythng to drop back down to baseline.

You're also ignoring the fact that the anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. Furthermore, you're also ignoring the body's ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. So, metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction.
December 6, 2011 12:07 PM
If you do weights - protein with some carbs - so cheap whey will do. It can be low quality with some sugars.

If cardio carbs like a fruit juice would be ideal.
December 6, 2011 12:09 PM
QUOTE:

I know they are different. From my light research, I have found that protien drinks are... mostly protien (whoah!!) and recovery drinks have a radio of 4:1 carbs to protien (I would probably be using chocolate milk) to help "heal" muscles faster.

Which do I want to take post workout? And why? I lift 2-3 days per week & at least an hour of cardio 5-6 days per week. I'm just not sure what would be best. On another side note, if you think I SHOULD take the recovery drink right after workouts, when should I drink my protien? It REALLY helps me meet my protien quota for the day.

Thank you!!


Don't over worry about it its not worth it. Just eat clean and train hard. Your body will do the rest
December 6, 2011 12:12 PM
In my humble experience I would eat something carbs within half an hour of training to replace energy and take a protein drink to aid in tissue/muscle recovery.
December 6, 2011 1:02 PM
QUOTE:

[But how many people are doing workouts under such conditions that would warrant a fast acting carb + protein?

Almost everyone I know... we're all endurance athletes, many training for Ironmans. laugh

I realize it gives me a skewed perspective, which is why I try to qualify my statements. In particular, I think a lot of 'regular' exercisers have been a fed a line through marketing about how they need stuff they don't... like people who drink Gatorade throughout their 1 hour Zumba class. You don't need a sports drink for one hour of exercise; water is fine.

But a little recovery snack after intense exercise doesn't hurt and may even help even with non-endurance workouts. The principles are the same -- muscles have broken down and are more receptive to protein at that time. I'm talking about 100-200 calories, though, not drinking a 300 calorie protein drink and eating 200 calories of carbs, which is probably more calories than were burned in the workout!
  159717

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